Unchained Preppers
General Category => Security & Survival => Topic started by: USMC0331 on September 17, 2013, 09:32:22 PM
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I'm starting this thread and another "What's Good Enough - Handgun Skills" because I'm curious what people here consider a "minimum" of skills needed to call it good on their handguns and carbine skills.
So what is your litmus test(s) concerning carbine skills for the prepper? (looking at 0-500yards) not sniping.
What is your training regime?
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Seeing as ive pretty much hit expert on everything in the armies inventory I believe I can speak on this.
If with a rifle one can hit a man size target at 300 meters 5/10 times your good. As distance decreases shots get easier and shot placement gets better. What matters THE MOST isn't the shot, but how fast one can reload and knowledge on ones own kit. That's it.
The first time a bullet comes zipping past your head. All the training in the world wont stop your mag dump towards the enemy. Thats whats going to happen. After that initial dump during the lull of you both reloading is when it counts.
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Using my holographic or A.R.M.S. sights I can easily do head shots with a rifle support out to 200 yards. I haven't tried out father though as I have scoped rifles for that job.
I have "tried" to simulate combat by doing jumping jacks and other cardio raising exercises and can hit a man sized target in the boiler plate, using different firing positions, out to 200 yards.
Now under stress of combat I hope I could hit a man sized target in the boiler plate at 200 yards. Time will tell. ;)
Stay tuned. :gunner:
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Honestly, I'm still a novice with my rifle skills (I'm learning), but is it reasonable to assume that you will engage anyone at distances of greater than 200 yards? I mean, without a scope ("sniping"), I seriously doubt I will be able to verify that person is actually a threat. Am I supposed to just start shooting at the first person I see? Unless you can verify that person is actively shooting at you with the naked eye, I don't see why I would want to put rounds down range. At 200+ yards, I should be able to disengage or close with the perceived enemy to verify my target. Right? Even if you're under fire, do you really want to start popping off rounds at what you think might be the enemy? In my mind, what if it's an innocent, and the enemy is elsewhere shooting at you? I don't want to take an innocent life. 1) My conscience would kill me. 2) You kill the innocent by accident, thinking it is the enemy, and if you check it out the real enemy ambushes you.
This is coming from someone who has never been in combat, so take my words with a grain (or a pound) of salt.
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I hear ya' Rah and agree with one caveat:
Blue Helmet = Shoot on site ;)
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At 200+ yards, I should be able to disengage or close with the perceived enemy to verify my target. Right?
It's 250 yards to middle of my property from the house were an access road comes up to it. Being able to hit a steel plate set at the gate when people are trying to cut across the property (they try even now) to follow the irrigation ditch would be a good confirmation of the no-tresspass sign.
Being able to make a hit past 200 yards has more value then trying to kill someone. Think outside the box.
How far is it from the middle of your block to the end cross roads? Think you might ever be "neighborhood watch" ala SELCO style in SHTF? I'd venture it's close to or farther than 200 yards.
Having at least a 4X scope is a huge multiplier as far as IDing and making hits at this distance. The farther out you can make the hit or discourage others, the safer you will be.
GOOD ENOUGH...
My personal test is that I need to be good enough to beat someone with military experience. We have a lot of war vets and not all are going to be good guys in SHTF.
Those that don't stock on food will go get it. The guy that has some training (i.e. average soldier) will be the biggest threat as they are head and shoulders above the average citizen plinker and they understand tacics.
BASICS TO HAVE DOWN PAT IMO:
- Make COM hits out to 500 yards
- Know how to clear a house with your carbine alone, & with a buddy
- Make COM hits while driving through a roadblock at 30 MPH
- Make COM hits from 25-200 yards from around a vehicle as cover, using standoff & prone methods
- Know your zero and ballistics well enough to make an eye box shot from 10-200 yards?
- Be able to perform reloads in less than 3 seconds from any position
- Be able make COM hits on moving targets up to 10MPH from 25-100 yards
- Be able to make a transition to secondary in less than 2 seconds when primary fails and get hits from 0-50 yards.
- Be able to clear any malfunction from "three little kittens" to case separation. Thanks Curahee for the guide rod tip!!!
- more as I think of them...
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The minimum is perfection. Until you obtain that keep training hard.
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The minimum is perfection. Until you obtain that keep training hard.
Good sound byte, but what do you train specifically to reach that goal? How often?
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The minimum is perfection. Until you obtain that keep training hard.
Good sound byte, but what do you train specifically to reach that goal? How often?
I'm always improving any way i can. Its not hard to find an area to improve in. I'd train every damn day if I could.
Like stated by Reaver, weapons manipulation skill wins fights not being able to hit that penny with your pistol at 100 yards.
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I say making timely COM hits while maneuvering and communicating wins the fight. "At speed" being the key.
Most shooters outside of 3gunners and dedicated shooters like Currahee"s group seem to miss that part. Most shooters being the average joes I see at the public range.
If I'm doing 5sec reloads instead of 2sec reloads on my rifle behind cover, its not a big deal compared to making a hit or miss on an exposed foot at 100 yards.
I'll take accuracy at speed over a perfect reload any day. Not that we shouldn't be working on both.
50% hits at 300 on a COM target even with a moving target is not going to cut it for me.
I was making 80% (4 of 5) hits on a 6MPH disappearing "jogger" with a bolt gun and 6X scope at that range and it was the first time I'd ever done it.
I once joined a group of guys (4-5 IIRC) from work at the range during rifle sight in for deer season. Each year they got together and had a competition for a case of beer on who could shoot the most targets at 100 yards in a row. These were 2-3" balloons stapled to a board. They had rested bolt guns with 3-9 scopes and could not hit more than one in a row!!!! My future wife outshot them with their own rifle and she never shoots.
Accuracy has a big role with a long gun and pistol IMO, bigger than reloading and smaller than immediate actions.
As absolutes like dumping a mag in the general direction of incoming before getting ahold of myself? Won't say it won't happen, but I won't be training that way either.
Knowing your kit is crucial I agree. I noticed one guy in Currahee's video going for a belt reload and then realizing that it was on his PC. One reason why I run my same pistol EDC setup even with my PC and CH. muscle memory is hard to break.
Just to be clear, I'm not trying to say my way is THE way or that your level of competence and mine should be the same, just pointing out my beliefs and like everyone else's, they are based on my own experience.
I've been shot at, but not by one trying to kill me. I've also trained to respond to threats one way as LEO and proven under stress to default to that training. I've also done enough manipulations that a RTB is second nature when they are not expected. I've also changed gear positions and tried to stuff a flashlight into my Glock during an emergency reload, back to knowing your kit again!
Appreciate all input! If you have any kind of regime that you use I'd like to hear about it. If you don't then what keeps your training from becoming a play date at the range?
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Hitting a 3" balloon @100 yards until you miss with a bolt gun? That would be an expensive game. 500 rounds later fatigue finally takes its tole...
To say hit X target at X distance dosent say much. I can go 10 out of 10 on an 8" plate at 650 yards with a good crosswind. It actually gets boring fast, semi-rapid firing and not missing. It means nothing. I can't do that with rounds cracking overhead.
I really am finding it hard to find words to explain this. I could type 20 paragraphs and say nothing. Just never stop training. Simple. Learn stuff and train it. If you had a good day at the range your training sucks. You should feel like you suck because you trained everything you suck at.
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Simple. Learn stuff and train it.
And that's what I'm trying to drag out of you... LOL What stuff?
Opening and closing an eyebox door at 650 on an MGM target is easy with a scoped GAP 308 but is that stuff I need to really concentrate on for SHTF? Is the payback worth the investment for most scenarios?
Is hitting a walking COM at 300 with an AR15 and ACOG a good investment? How about headshots at 100 static? COM shots at 25-50 inside a house? F2S drills on chargers at 15 yards?
Can your gear even get you past 100 yard COM shots realistically? Where do you see a carbines sweet spot at in SHTF scenarios? Where do you spend your time at with it most?
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Simple. Learn stuff and train it.
And that's what I'm trying to drag out of you... LOL What stuff?
Opening and closing an eyebox door at 650 on an MGM target is easy with a scoped GAP 308 but is that stuff I need to really concentrate on for SHTF? Is the payback worth the investment for most scenarios?
Is hitting a walking COM at 300 with an AR15 and ACOG a good investment? How about headshots at 100 static? COM shots at 25-50 inside a house? F2S drills on chargers at 15 yards?
Can your gear even get you past 100 yard COM shots realistically? Where do you see a carbines sweet spot at in SHTF scenarios? Where do you spend your time at with it most?
-Pistol 21'
-Shotgun (my go to primary) 50 yards
If I can RULE that circle i'm feelin pretty good.
A shotgun really is all weapons manipulation. Its a game of keeping the gun fed. Hitting targets is a given(when your at a certain level). Its up to your pattern to do the rest. Anyone in my circle is my bitch. Your outside my circle? Your my team mate with the ARs bitch. Any AR in my circle is at a disadvantage. Any shotgun is too because I bet I keep my gun fed faster and pellets flying at you more regularly. If I can't feel that confident I need to train harder. Ill forever be seeking that confidence.
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ARMY guys.... LOL skip to 7m20s
http://youtu.be/b6VtmbAKVZ8?t=7m20s (http://youtu.be/b6VtmbAKVZ8?t=7m56s)
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ARMY guys.... LOL skip to 7m20s
http://youtu.be/b6VtmbAKVZ8?t=7m20s (http://youtu.be/b6VtmbAKVZ8?t=7m56s)
Haven't skipped ahead to see what your talking about but this vern lost my interest in the first minute when he released the slide on a new mag with the slide lock on his pistol.. lol.... under no circumstances should you train to do such a thing...
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...when he released the slide on a new mag with the slide lock on his pistol.. lol.... under no circumstances should you train to do such a thing...
... That is unless you're rockin' a Kahr. :lmfao:
[/end sarcastic remark about Kahrs]
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Kentactic... never mind. LOL
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Kentactic... never mind. LOL
Ya I missed the joke. I'm drinking and watching with no sound on my phone.
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Dude in the video claimed that "Army guys" spend 4-5 seconds of rapid fire and hit jack shit, whereas he spends a second or two actually aiming and getting hits.
Though I'm pretty sure there are a lot of "Army guys" who would take issue with that broad classification. 1KM was an "Army guy," airborne, I believe.
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At 200+ yards, I should be able to disengage or close with the perceived enemy to verify my target. Right?
It's 250 yards to middle of my property from the house were an access road comes up to it. Being able to hit a steel plate set at the gate when people are trying to cut across the property (they try even now) to follow the irrigation ditch would be a good confirmation of the no-tresspass sign.
I can see the value of that, but it also reveals your position. I don't have a fire team to back me up. Just me and a couple of other guys.
Being able to make a hit past 200 yards has more value then trying to kill someone. Think outside the box.
I didn't say I wouldn't put time into it, or that it isn't a skill that is useful to have. My impression of your initial post was that we were talking combat related shooting for use against opposition.
How far is it from the middle of your block to the end cross roads? Think you might ever be "neighborhood watch" ala SELCO style in SHTF? I'd venture it's close to or farther than 200 yards.
The areas I see myself being in during a SHTF scenario are nominally 200 yards or less. Maybe more in certain instances, but not enough to make it a huge concern.
Having at least a 4X scope is a huge multiplier as far as IDing and making hits at this distance. The farther out you can make the hit or discourage others, the safer you will be.
I completely agree, but you did specify "no sniping" in your initial post. So I assumed you meant no scopes - which is why I said no shots past 200 yards, since I cannot fathom verifying if a person is friend or foe with the naked eye past 200 yards. And that's with the binoculars I have.
GOOD ENOUGH...
My personal test is that I need to be good enough to beat someone with military experience. We have a lot of war vets and not all are going to be good guys in SHTF.
I agree, that worries me, too.
Those that don't stock on food will go get it. The guy that has some training (i.e. average soldier) will be the biggest threat as they are head and shoulders above the average citizen plinker and they understand tacics.
BASICS TO HAVE DOWN PAT IMO:
- Make COM hits out to 500 yards
- Know how to clear a house with your carbine alone, & with a buddy
- Make COM hits while driving through a roadblock at 30 MPH
- Make COM hits from 25-200 yards from around a vehicle as cover, using standoff & prone methods
- Know your zero and ballistics well enough to make an eye box shot from 10-200 yards?
- Be able to perform reloads in less than 3 seconds from any position
- Be able make COM hits on moving targets up to 10MPH from 25-100 yards
- Be able to make a transition to secondary in less than 2 seconds when primary fails and get hits from 0-50 yards.
- Be able to clear any malfunction from "three little kittens" to case separation. Thanks Curahee for the guide rod tip!!!
- more as I think of them...
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http://youtu.be/MSXAXtuqTSc
Good enough? If you can't do better, you need to work on it.
I give these guys great kudos for doing the work. Video has a way of putting you in your place.
What are the biggest lessons you learned from thy video concerning gear and tactics?
I'll reserve my comments for now. And for anyone that wants to run down their efforts... Put up or shut up. We learn from our own and others mistakes.
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What are the biggest lessons you learned from thy video concerning gear and tactics?
Get familiar with your gear. First guy fought his gear the whole way through.
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Was that a Mahendra tractor in the pole barn TG? :tractor:
Just some quick observations broken down by Guy I and Guy II:
Guy I
Pro
> Seemed to be in better shape than Guy II
Con
> That first AK was a piece of crap. I lost count how many times he had to clear it
> I didn't understand the whole concept of repositioning his rifle
> Handgun holster interfered with his kit.
> Clothes and kit seemed to be brand new - Stood out.
Guy II
Pro
> Primary Weapon didn't seem as problematic
> Didn't have "re-slinging" issues
> As Kentactic wrote above he seemed to be more familiar with his whole kit
Con
> He seemed to be huffing and puffing more than Guy I
Closing Comments:
I was impressed with these two guys. Pretty good "woods walk" they put together along with the CQ drills. It looked like Guy II had a select fire weapon which is nice but he went through ammo fast. All and all a great effort.
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I have a couple of questions for anyone experienced:
1) They seemed to take a lot of time re-holstering their sidearms - would it be better to invest more in a Safariland style holster? Those seem to have a more sturdy frame and you can unlock/lock the holster with only one hand instead of two. I just got uncomfortable watching them take so long, devoting all their attention for several seconds to use both hands to unlock/lock the holster and get the firearm in it correctly in the first place. I have a Sig rotary holster that is somewhat like the Safari, and I can manipulate it when OC'ing without looking at it.
2) The "house" part of the course - it seems to work well with that SBR AK and a 16" AR variant, but for those of us with longer rifles, would it not be better to just use a sidearm the entire way through? I'm concerned about someone grabbing the barrel, having to expose more of your body, and taking longer to navigate through the house.
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Rah, I totally agree with your #2 comment. If it was me, I would have pushed my primary to the side and pulled my handgun for this CQ part of the woods walk.
PS. I also agree with your #1 comment. It was painful to watch. :suicide:
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Dude in the video claimed that "Army guys" spend 4-5 seconds of rapid fire and hit jack shit, whereas he spends a second or two actually aiming and getting hits.
Though I'm pretty sure there are a lot of "Army guys" who would take issue with that broad classification. 1KM was an "Army guy," airborne, I believe.
Am I the only one that takes a second to check out a sources background?
http://www.wayofthegun.us/about/ (http://www.wayofthegun.us/about/)
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I agree on the house going to secondary. After the first entrance you could tell that it was going to be very tight.
Specifically I saw...
Tactics
3.05 can see target while slicing pie but pops out for full exposure to shoot it
7.27 gun grab waiting to happen
7.29 turns back on unsecured lane
16.35 chamber checks but does not top off before going over hill
17.35 surprised by target, either first run or lost concentration. Why the rush? Move and pause, which he does well in other areas of clip
17.54 good retreat to cover/concealment for mag change, way too slow though
18.35 good use of charging handle sight method in brushy area, expecting up close targets
Unfamiliarity / bad technique
1.13 right hand loading as a right handed person, take master grip away.
1.22 slow reload with no emerg spot setup
1.22 very slow transition
1.25 thumbs hammer, adds time instead of dbl action, breaks shooting grip
1.35 poor recoil management
1.40 again mag on wrong side, gun in weak hand without firing grip to reload
1.53 sling hanging on water bag
4.34 reload w/retention has gun empty for 5 seconds!
6.05 gun not in shoulder, poor recoil management
7.12 folds stock for QCB, suffers many FTF for it as well as recoil management
10.10 long time to secure secondary
12.45 E-reload slow from flapped pouch. Should have one setup or speed and be bumping mags
17.54 fatigue showing, rides bolt home
Safety
16.30 slings rifle w/safety off. Never uses safety on COF, even with long pauses between threats
Bad gear
11.10 shell stuck in chamber, stops and switches uppers. GI cleaning rods would have had him back up in 5minutes tops
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Dude in the video claimed that "Army guys" spend 4-5 seconds of rapid fire and hit jack shit, whereas he spends a second or two actually aiming and getting hits.
Though I'm pretty sure there are a lot of "Army guys" who would take issue with that broad classification. 1KM was an "Army guy," airborne, I believe.
Am I the only one that takes a second to check out a sources background?
http://www.wayofthegun.us/about/ (http://www.wayofthegun.us/about/)
His experience on the matter is inconsequential, which is why I did not bother with his background. If Chesty Puller had said it, the statement still would have been unfair and untrue. There are plenty of guys in every branch of the military, including the Marine Corps where "every Marine is a rifleman," who do not know how to properly operate and maintain their weapon, much less hit targets adequately (and my sources for that info are two infantry guys, former Army and Marine Corps). My point is that making such broad generalizations does a disservice to those Army guys who actually take the trouble and do practice and do get it right. If he had said that "Army basic firearms training teaches this crap instead of what they should," I wouldn't have said anything.
It's no different than saying, "All conservatives/liberals/libertarians think ******* about ********, now and forever." Painting issues with such a broad brush doesn't help anyone - it only severely ridicules those whose minds you wish to change (and they won't listen because it's not constructive criticism), and it ignores those people who put effort into doing "it" the right way.
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The way I see it is... being Army and knowing that many Army guys can't shoot, he has a right to give them shit which is what he was doing.
No different than an LEO saying most cops can't shoot.
Both are true statements and his background gives him a pass because he knows first hand, so it's very relevant.
If someone won't put in the work then nothing they hear is going to matter. You have people that test things and think for themselves and those that don't.... period.
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The way I see it is... being Army and knowing that many Army guys can't shoot, he has a right to give them shit which is what he was doing.
No different than an LEO saying most cops can't shoot.
Both are true statements and his background gives him a pass because he knows first hand, so it's very relevant.
If someone won't put in the work then nothing they hear is going to matter. You have people that test things and think for themselves and those that don't.... period.
Had he made that distinction, it would not have mattered. "Most" and "many" is very different from "all," and without saying "most" or "many," "all" is implied.
His background is impressive, but him voluntarily taking on the role of instructor and, therefore, a role model of sorts, forgoes his "pass," as you call it. Someone attempting to educate others as that man is doing has a certain responsibility to correct others with respect and grace. Broad negative categorizations do neither, instead causing divides among those who might otherwise come together to learn. Furthermore, it sets a bad example to anyone else who might consider serving as an instructor. Because of his experience, because of his assumed position as educator, guide, instructor, his words carry power. With this kind of power, just like when handling firearms, you must exercise appropriate caution and behave responsibly. This applies to him, or any other instructor/teacher in any educational setting.
"What's Good Enough - Carbine Skills" - You started this thread so that we can post our ideas, experiences, questions, concerns, etc., all with the intention of helping one another improve our skills. How we speak to one another, whether on a forum, via YouTube videos or at the range doing personal training, does affect how much we learn. A comment designed to demean another is never necessary in an educational setting. There is always a neutral way to identify the problem, address it, and work to solve it.
Effective, positive communication to others regarding topics such as these is just as important as the actual skills you are trying to teach. If you talk to someone else, directly or indirectly, in the same manner he did, you will have only a negative effect on that person. You will also likely lose respect from others who see you do it. In your students' eyes, if you said that about him, why wouldn't you say it about them? No one wants to be made a scapegoat - everyone wishes to have a patient, understanding instructor. Whenever you find yourself in that position, as a teacher, you willingly take that responsibility, and everything that happens with your student as a result of your choice of mannerism and language is on your head. You are correct in that hard work on the student's part is key to learning, and this is the student's responsibility. However, you can make or break a student's will with just one positive or negative word. One word can be all it takes, one sentence spoken a certain way. As a student, they work to learn. As a teacher, you must earn and maintain their respect - and that means giving as well as getting it. If they do not respect you, they will not learn much, if anything, from you.
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Wow rah, that's a well laid out explanation and I thank you for it. That said... "If you talk to someone else, directly or indirectly, in the same manner he did, you will have only a negative effect on that person." I think you take things a bit to seriously. If he did that in front of me I would have the same response I did while watching it... a good nature'd laugh.
If a person can not laugh at themselves when they perform sub-par or fail, they will not get back up and carry on IME.
Very few cops shoot competition with civies because their egos won't allow them to fail in front of them or they want to believe they have skilz so much that they will not put them to the test until it is no longer voluntary, i.e. a shootout.
Many on the forums (this one included I'm sure) tend to fall into the same trap. My intent of the post is to make people think about what their skill levels really are in comparison to a likely opponent and possibly encourage them to get out and test them like those guys in the video. To have people ask themselves... "Am I in the Arena?"
It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.
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I think this thread was a great idea. I know that I need it, because I don't get a lot of opportunity to go practice like I would like to do.
You make a good point about ego, and you're correct in saying that people (such as certain LEOs, for instance) can use their ego as a shield because they're afraid of criticism. Instead of just laughing it off and moving on to someone more receptive, I challenge anyone who serves as an instructor to accept getting that person to let down their guard, put aside their ego and trust you with their emotional vulnerability, so that you can truly help them prepare. Plenty of egotistical, hard-headed guys in the military who probably wouldn't be alive if some NCO hadn't cared enough to punch through that outer wall and used that opportunity to teach them life-saving lessons.
Some people are hopeless - they just won't let that ego fall away in order to learn. However, there are those who just need a teacher to make that little extra effort to get inside their mental and emotional wall, make that connection between teacher and pupil, and use that connection to, in this case, hopefully save a life down the road. Teachers cannot always tell which is which, and it's your call whether to make that extra effort, but I ask you not to dismiss someone just because they're a little more hard-headed. They might just need you to peek under that outer shell. That egotistical asshat at the range might just be the most trustworthy friend you could ever meet, if you can get under his defenses and give him a chance.
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excellent points, and I want to add that I hear you about matching your behavior to the student. I have a friend that is interested in prepping (Morman that has the food part cold) and got started in IDPA/3gun last year as well as shooting with me on more SHTF type scenarios.
Great guy, but not having been .mil, LEO, smoke jumper, etc. I sometimes need to remind myself not to be as brash as I can be sometimes. If he ain't hearing the message because of the messenger, it's no point now is it?
Like being a good Christian proclaiming the Gospel. I can reach many with it that "sensitive" people can't because I'm up front and no BS about it, but either topic though can fall on deaf ears if I get too confrontational or develop the attitude that they need to "suck it up" which is a .mil thing that some don't get.
You have served me a good reminder to think about the audience. Is the end goal to cultivate potential preppers or enlist those that are hardcore only? On the other hand... Sometimes being the NCO kicking one in the arse is the proper role model. :)
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http://mountainguerrilla.wordpress.com/2013/09/23/the-realities-of-applied-combat-marksmanship-or-why-basic-marksmanship-training-is-just-not-enough/
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A bit off-topic however I have been following the discussion between DVC and Rah45 so here goes.
I have been a successful coach of people for over the past 35+ years because in part, I am a coach not a manager. You manage cows you coach people.
The other part of being successful is to know your people. Some folks only need a "feather approach" when coaching for optimal performance while others need a "2x4 applied to the head approach."
It's all about art & science. The style you use to deliver the facts make all the difference.